Israel and Palestine

[Prowsey]

I post this thread with a great deal of trepidation.

But I believe that we can have a discussion on the appalling situation in the Middle East, without it descending into an inflammatory slanging match.

I will start.

I respect Israel's right to exist.

(Even though the creation of the "Jewish National Home" by the British and French (Sykes-Picot agreement), with contributions by Russia - like most things they did in that region, not to mention India - was a poorly thought out travesty, with unintended consequences we are still dealing with today.

What a lot of people may not realise is that the original "State of Israel" (wasn't called that) was significantly smaller than what Israel claims today as its territory (3 out of 5 of its "borders" are not recognised by the international community). Anyone can google the pre-1967 borders for Israel to see the masssive land grab that Israel has undertaken since that ill-begotten war. )

What Hamas did 11 days ago was barbaric and it should be condemned in the strongest possible terms by everyone. Indiscriminate killing of innocent civilians, rape and the taking of hostages is disgraceful.

There was a very interesting opinion piece by the SMH's Peter Hartcher (who is a noted Hawk on China and the Middle East) on the context of this latest attack by Hamas and the outcomes for Iran.

Having said that, the occupation and ruthless repression of the Gaza Strip has been a humanitarian disaster of untold proportion for many years.

The Israeli Govt, with seeming impunity has been committing human rights violations and war crimes against the people living in this benighted strip of land without compassion and without a conscience.

And what they are doing in response to the attacks by Hamas are no less barbaric than Hamas' actions in the first 12-24 hours.

War crimes and attempted genocide by the Israeli Govt cannot be condoned by the Western Media and Govts of the West more generally.

The Middle East is a seething cauldron of hatreds and resentments that go back millenia. Sadly these are fed daily by the extreme right wing forces within the Israeli Govt AND the extremists who are part of Hamas and the other para military organisations that operate unchecked within the Palestine Protectorate and the Arab States that surround Israel.

What out Govt needs to do, alongside the US, the UK and the EU more generally is to condemn the human rights abuses that the Israeli Govt continues to perpetrate on the people of the Gaza Strip in particular while simultaneously condeming the barbarity of the attack by Hamas on Israel - and seeking to hold Iran to account for their part in this never ending tragedy.

Anyway, fire at will, see if I care.

 

[southsport]

Very sad situation, I'm expecting this to escalate into a much bigger conflict.
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[Bluey]

What you said in the line i quoted is so wrong, to equate the hunting down and killing of whole families, ie women and children or slaughtering young people fleeing a concert is going to far, Israel cant ask Hamas to come out and fight as they wont, they prefer the political wedge of forcing Israel to target them from civilian neighborhoods , this is tragic for the people of Gaza but from what i have seen the people cheer Hamas and the spilling of Jewish blood, also tragic that no Islamic Arabic country will accept a single refugee, they prefer to leave them all there as a thorn in the side of Israel, also when you hear the chants " from the river to the sea" this means wiping out Israel totally, not a great way to garner sympathy.

And what they are doing in response to the attacks by Hamas are no less barbaric than Hamas' actions in the first 12-24 hours.

 

[daRque]

It's a brave topic, I wondered who'd go there.

JAC was correct when he compared it to Indigenous land theft and land rights.

Israel are bullies and will always have the USA's support, which is one of the main problems stopping them all from reaching a solution.

What HAMAS just did was inexcusable and is not the way to reach a solution.

You're right, what Israel are doing in response is just as inexcusable. I am not a fan of Israel's govt, never have been. Just because you have the ability to shut down water supply, power etc doesn't mean you should.

Another thing in the media about this that pisses me off is they are presenting it as a two party battle, Israel vs HAMAS. It's a three party battle, Israel vs HAMAS and Palestine.

There are a massive amount of Palestinians who don't support HAMAS, they just care about some land to live on, food supplies, good clean water which has been an issue and basic civil rights.

They are no more HAMAS supporters than every German was a Nazi. Just silly stuff.

I watch a lot of docos on the history of WW1 and WW2, always been fascinated by it. Plus other wars, particularly USA Civil War and the Aboriginal Black Wars that many white people still try to deny even happened.

Out of all this observing war history, the one thing I know for certain is that no one ever wins a war.

I actually came to tears the other night with news coverage of this sweetest little girl covered in blood, a little Palestinian girl.

It was just so tragic and sad.

I thought to myself this is presenting the handiwork of the alleged "winner and good guy" according to so many. How is this winning.

Israel seem to get considered the good guys, yet some historians give them the credit for being the first terrorists, they invented it according to these historians.

I'll post some general things I've saved over the years.

All we are saying, is Give Peace a Chance.

----------------------Articles:....................................

The first terrorists in what is now modern Israel/ Palestine were Zionists, especially the militant groups "Irgun" and "Fighters for the Freedom of Israel" or "Stern Gang," which carried out bombings, murders and assassinations 1944-1948. They were condemned as terrorists by the United Nations and by the British authorities who controlled Palestine at the time. Prominent among the Zionist terrorists were two men who later served as prime minister of Israel: Menachem Begin, a prominent "Irgun" figure, and Yitzhak Shamir, a "Stern Gang" leader.

And They Call Us Terrorists ...by Amir Meshkin​

Today, Arabs and Muslims are often associated with terrorism. Sharon often states that talks will not resume until Arafat controls his army of terrorists. Now that it is quiet obvious that Sharon does not even want peace, the question remains. What exactly is terrorism? Terrorism is violence, especially bombing, kidnapping, and assassination, carried out for political reasons as defined by most dictionaries. Terrorism is however used only by a weaker people against a stronger while the stronger people simply use their military. The problem with this is the weaker and usually oppressed people are labeled the terrorists while the stronger people often get away with mass murder. Every Palestinian killed today was killed by terrorists. They may not have crude home-made bombs and mortars, but this detail makes their actions far more cruel. Power corrupts and Israel's use of excessive force against a weaker people fits in well with the definition of terrorism. Israel was not always the stronger people however. Before Israel got what it wanted, Zionists practically invented terrorism. Terror was a policy first adopted by Zionists. The first airplane hijacking was committed by Israel in 1954 when a civilian Syrian airliner was hijacked shortly after the plane took off. Zionists invented the car bomb, and Zionists were the first to assassinate United Nations personnel as well as attack their own allies, such as the attack on the USS Liberty in 1967. Today no one seems to remember the Zionist truck-bomb which blew up Jerusalems King David hotel killing around 200 in 1946. Not many even know that on October 14, 1953, an elite unit under command of current Prime Minister Ariel Sharon attacked the village of Qibya in Jordan. Army officials stated that intelligence stated the village was evacuated, but the UN found bullet holes in the debris. The bullet holes were made from Sharon and his men shooting at the houses to make sure the inhabitants stayed inside while the time bombs went off. Around 66 houses were blown up killing over a hundred civilians, mainly women and children. Zionist terrorism in the 1930s and 1940s has been forgotten because it is obvious that the winners write the history books. There are however many instances of Zionist terrorism that would be impossible to fit in one measly article. Terrorism was the only policy of the Zionists, which were determined to scare all Arabs from what they believe was their land. Cafes and restaurant were favorite targets of Zionist along with poor residential neighborhoods. More than 500 civilians were killed in the years of 1937 and 1938 alone. On April 16, 1939, Zionist terrorists randomly shot two Arab civilians near Betah Takfe settlements setting up many similar instances where innocent civilians were randomly shot week after week. A study showed that the 6 months before the birth of Israel, over 1,000 Arabs were killed and almost a million scared or evicted from their homes. This is not only terrorism but mass terrorism, designed to force Muslims to migrate elsewhere. These operations became more cruel when Zionist realized that a Jewish state was a possibility. The problem for the Zionist was however the security of the Jews. The world however can obviously see that the Zionist did not want to mix with Arabs. How could Gods chosen people mingle with inferior race anyhow? Around the second half of December 1947, Zionist attacked civilians in villages within the Haifa sub-district and soon they moved to villages in the sub-district of Safad and Tabaraya. Over 170 men, women and children civilians were killed in these attacks. Although many Arabs were scared away at this point, this did not stop Zionist from attacking residents of Al-Tireh, Saasa, Kfar Husseiniya, Sarafand, Kalounya, Beyt Sourik, Aylaboun, Al-Shajara and Nasser Al-Dine killing 250 civilians. Israel however shocked the world when they slaughtered a few hundred civilians in the village of Deir Yassin, on the 19th of April. Even after the establishment of the Jewish state, Zionist still did not believe Israel to be pure. In the summer of 1953, Israel attacked the camp of Bureig in Gaza, and then the village of Kubeiya killing 60 and wounding 90 Arab civilians. Every week seemed to bring another massacre at the hands of Zionists. The more famous of these were the massacres at the village of Nahalin and the coast of Tabaraya lake killing around 20. In the 1956 war, Israel showed its love of human beings by bombing villages in Gaza killing hundreds of civilians. The 1956 massacres of Kfar Kassem and Khan Younus saw the deaths off 450 civilians which were mainly workers and farmers. In 1966 and 1967, raids on Al-Nakib and Al-Sumu saw the deaths of 50 civilians. Palestinians were not the only targets of Zionist however. Zionist terrorism spread across the borders whenever Israel felt like they needed to retaliate against Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt. In September of 1967, around 200 Egyptian civilians were killed in Al-Suise, the port of Tawfik and Al-Ismailiya. Around 100 were killed in raids on sub-districts of Arbad and Al-Salat. Israel stated that these villages contained Palestinian fighters and followed with more attacks the following year.

 

[daRque]

Around 130 civilians were killed in the summer of 1968 in Al-Suise and Al-Ismailiya, and 1969 saw the deaths of 60 civilian in attacks on Al-Hama and Meysaloon, in Syria and Bour Said, in Egypt. An attack of a factory in Abi Zubel saw the deaths of 70 civilians in 1970, and 50 school children were killed when Israel attacked Baher Al-Bakar school in Egypt.

Palestinians have never attacked an Israeli school yet they still call Palestinians terrorists. The massacres in Lebanon alone should bring massive condemnation of Israel from the world but generally has not. Seems like the holocaust is Israel's excuse for repeating the evil.

When Israel invaded and occupied the southern part of Lebanon in 1982, it was clear they truly wanted to add to their nation of hatred. There were reports of civilians rounded up in Mosques and murdered as well as daily rocket attacks, shelling, air raids, naval bombings, mines, car bombs, home demolitions, assassination and napalm attacks.

The targets of these atrocities were hospitals, mosques, gatherings, market places, lone houses and schools. Ports were also closed devastating the economy and not allowing medical supplies and other aid to reach needy civilians. Israeli settlers reportedly also poisoned water supplies while Israel disrupted electricity and stole water from Lebanese rivers. To view just some of the atrocities performed by Israel against Lebanon, go to www.qana.org.

There are far too many to list here, and the website mentioned only brushes on the mentioned massacres. In conclusion tens of thousands of Lebanese were killed, wounded, and missing. Many of these were men, women, children, the elderly, journalists and even religious figures. Some of the more discreet weapons of terrorism were cluster and vacuum bombs, shrapnel, phosphoric and napalm, and (I still cannot believe this) booby trapped dolls. If these actions by Sharon, which masterminded the invasion and occupation, were not ethnic cleansing and very cruel, then you may need to check weather or not you were born with a heart.

Israel has always been a sneaky type of country. They want to kill as many Arabs as they can, but will dodge the blame whenever possible. UN reports stated that in 1982, Maronite Christians supervised and helped by Israeli soldiers killed around 3000 civilians in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps. Israel was also known to squash cars full of civilians with tanks and bombing houses. In 1973, Israel also shot down a Libyan civil aircraft over Sinai killing all 106 civilian passengers aboard. Israel also has an obsession of killing Muslims while they practice their faith as shown in one of the more famous cases in 1994 where 50 Arab Muslims were killed in the Ibrahimi Mosque in Al-Khalil. Israel has even committed these types of war crimes against its own allies in the past.

During the 1967 war, Israel attacked the USS liberty killing 35 soldiers. Israel stated they saw no flag and mistook the ship for an Egyptian ship. The shiny American ship not only looked nothing like the Egyptian ship but flew a large American flag overhead. Israel then made up a phony and flawed testimony about the incident but the US did not buy it. The two notable terrorist actions against the British however were the assassination of Lord Mowin in Cairo and the attempted assassination of Sir Harold McMichel in Jerusalem. Zionist terrorists assassinated or attempted to assassinate many high ranking employees of large companies, officers and judges.

Zionists were also known to do some very cruel things such as hanging opponents on tree trunks and electrical poles, crucifications, and blowing up the bodies of kidnapped victims by sticking dynamite inside the victim. If you still do not believe that Zionism is just as cruel, if not more cruel, than nazism, then read the next paragraph on what some Zionists did to their own people.

Not only were their reports of key Zionists meeting with Hitler, but there were also many terrorist acts against European Jews which Zionists believed were sinners and not pure. The Jewish ship Patria was blown up in November of 1940 of the coast of Palestine. The ship was carrying 1,900 illegal Jewish immigrants into Palestine, 240 of which drowned. In 1942, Zionist gangs blew up the Stromanear the shore of Turkey which was carrying 770 illegal Jews, all of which drowned. Even today, some modern Zionists show their same hatred and cruelty.

The father of a girl who was almost blown up recently by a Hamas militant stated an opinion which many Jews take to heart. David Glam, stated recently that he does not hate Arabs generally. But when they act this way and hurt people," he adds, referring to suicide bombings, "it makes me hate them. He later states that if he had an atomic bomb, he would use it on the Arabs. Many would not be surprised if another war in the middle east ended with Israel unleashing its nuclear arsenal.

This is not propaganda but simple facts. Israel committed many of these atrocities and many more, some personally performed by Sharon himself. To kill civilians for political reason is terrorism. The assassination of activists is terrorism. The shooting of kids when all they do is throw stones is terrorism. The two sides may have switched but Israel's cruel past can be seen in its cruel treatment of Arabs by its military.

Israel does not want peace, it wants all the Arabs to leave the land they believe is theirs. Hundreds of kids have been killed by Israel and they call us terrorists. Villages have been destroyed with dynamite while the inhabitants were asleep inside, and they call us terrorists. Thousands of houses have been bulldozed over the years, and they call us terrorists.

Helicopters, naval warships, and tanks pound on civilians in villages daily and they call us terrorists. How come no one ever calls some of Israel's unbelievable and vile acts terrorism? Why are we called terrorists because of a few bad apples when Israel's army commits terrorism against us on a daily basis. All they seem to do is kill but if we throw a stone, God forbid, we are suddenly labeled as the terrorists.

 

[daRque]

UN accuses Israel of child torture​

Date

June 21, 2013 - 6:17AM

​

View attachment 1716
An Israeli soldier holds a Palestinian girl back as she cries following the arrest of her mother during a demonstration in the West Bank village of Nabi Saleh. AFP PHOTO/ABBAS MOMANI Photo: ABBAS MOMANI

Geneva: A United Nations human rights watchdog has accused Israel’s police and military of abuses against Palestinian children ranging from torture to threats of death and sexual assault in prisons.

In a report on Israel’s record, the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child expressed its ‘‘deepest concern about the reported practice of torture and ill-treatment of Palestinian children arrested, prosecuted and detained by the military and the police’’.

The committee said soldiers arrested Palestinian youngsters regularly during night-time sweeps, tying their hands painfully and blindfolding them, and often transferring them to detention centres without informing their parents.

It also said that arrested Palestinian children were subjected systematically to physical and verbal abuse, threatened with death, physical violence, and sexual assault against themselves or members of their family, as well as having access restricted to toilets, food and water.

‘‘These crimes are perpetrated from the time of arrest, during transfer and interrogation, to obtain a confession but also on an arbitrary basis as testified by several Israeli soldiers as well as during pre-trial detention,’’ said the committee.

It had obtained its information from other UN rights bodies, military sources and Israeli and Palestinian rights groups.

Israel did not cooperate with requests for information on the issue, it said.

Besides spotlighting abuses in Palestinian territories, it also expressed grave concern at the number of Palestinian youngsters who have been held in Israeli jails.

It said that an estimated 7000 children aged from 12 to 17 years, but sometimes as young as nine, have been arrested, interrogated and detained since 2002 - an average of two per day.

Most were taken in after being accused of throwing stones at Israeli forces and settlers, an offence which can carry a 20-year penalty.

In April this year, 236 children were in military detention centres, with dozens aged between 12 and 15, the report said, drawing on data from UNICEF and Israeli rights group B’tselem.

A spokesman for Israel’s foreign ministry rejected the findings of the report, which he said were ‘‘not based on any direct investigation on the ground’’.

‘‘In this case, we are not talking about any kind of investigation,’’ he said.

 

[Bluey]

Israel was attacked, it was not an attack on the military , all those lives lost is on Hamas, years ago i was anti Israel but now when you see the blood lust and lack of any willingness of radical Islam to negotiate i can see the need for Israel to be tough, look at Syria and ISIS, my god even the Shia were deemed not worthy to live, Tony Abbott was so right when he said if you were born in Australia you had won the lottery of life.

 

[southsport]

The muslim world want nothing less than the elimination of Israel, looking for a solution to this is a waste of time.
.

 

[daRque]

Israel was attacked, it was not an attack on the military , all those lives lost is on Hamas, years ago i was anti Israel but now when you see the blood lust and lack of any willingness of radical Islam to negotiate i can see the need for Israel to be tough, look at Syria and ISIS, my god even the Shia were deemed not worthy to live, Tony Abbott was so right when he said if you were born in Australia you had won the lottery of life.

Radical Islam is a minority, Palestinians are the majority.

Why is it okay for Israel to punish the majority who don't want war, they want their lives, food, and safety.

It was totally wrong for HAMAS to do what they did, it is totally wrong for Israel to unleash their military might against civilians who have no defence.

There is no rule that says you need to take a side here, a good start though would be to see the violence and murder coming from both sides, and acknowledge it.

 

[daRque]

The muslim world want nothing less than the elimination of Israel, looking for a solution to this is a waste of time.
.

The radical Islamists possibly.

 

[Prowsey]

Another thing in the media about this that pisses me off is they are presenting it as a two party battle, Israel vs HAMAS. It's a three party battle, Israel vs HAMAS and Palestine.

There are arguments being put that this is was actually an Iranian sponsored operation under the Hamas flag.
The Iranians were worried that Saudi Arabia was about to sign a “detente” with Israel, which would mean that Iran was isolated.
So they pulled this operation to prevent the Saudis signing the agreement.
Will dig the article up by Hartcher.

Agree that not every Palestinian supports Hamas or the other terrorist organisations operating out of Gaza. Indeed there is very strong opposition to what they are doing in their name.

Just like there are many many Israelis appalled at the barbarity their Govt has unleashed on Gaza over the last 10-15 years under the execrable RW criminal Netanyahu.

And appalled at the atrocities being committed in their name by the extremists within the Israeli Govt and Defence Forces.

I haven’t been able to read the articles yet, but I will (sorry, can’t rid of this for some reason).

 

[Magaoidh]

When you quote Tony Abbott you are really grovelling in the gravel Bluebug.
Geez the previous posters who are no friends of mine said it all.
Cant you learn anything?

 

[southsport]

The radical Islamists possibly.

Look at the protests in Sydney, it's clear what they want.
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[Bluey]

Honestly what was Israel to do, no way was Hamas going to come out and fight, they fire rockets from the suburbs hoping that any retaliation will bring sympathy for them, also when you see Palestinian people cheering in the streets it dulls the empathy somewhat, we had our own people in SW Sydney cheering on 9/11 remember, the leader of Turkey once said there is no radical Islam, just islam.

Radical Islam is a minority, Palestinians are the majority.

Why is it okay for Israel to punish the majority who don't want war, they want their lives, food, and safety.

It was totally wrong for HAMAS to do what they did, it is totally wrong for Israel to unleash their military might against civilians who have no defence.

There is no rule that says you need to take a side here, a good start though would be to see the violence and murder coming from both sides, and acknowledge it.

 

[Bluey]

Mags dont be such a hater , Tony Abbott was a leader not afraid to dig in, and we were getting on so well Mags??.

When you quote Tony Abbott you are really grovelling in the gravel Bluebug.
Geez the previous posters who are no friends of mine said it all.
Cant you learn anything?