Israel and Palestine

[daRque]

Honestly what was Israel to do, no way was Hamas going to come out and fight, they fire rockets from the suburbs hoping that any retaliation will bring sympathy for them, also when you see Palestinian people cheering in the streets it dulls the empathy somewhat, we had our own people in SW Sydney cheering on 9/11 remember, the leader of Turkey once said there is no radical Islam, just islam.

The leader of Turkey is wrong.

 

[Prowsey]

Israel was attacked, it was not an attack on the military , all those lives lost is on Hamas, years ago i was anti Israel but now when you see the blood lust and lack of any willingness of radical Islam to negotiate i can see the need for Israel to be tough, look at Syria and ISIS, my god even the Shia were deemed not worthy to live, Tony Abbott was so right when he said if you were born in Australia you had won the lottery of life.

You do know that ISIS was created as a direct result of the US illegally invading Iraq in 2002, and removing Saddam Hussein - who was an absolute monster to be clear, but he kept the warring factions within Iraq under control - leaving a power vacuum that Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi stepped into to form the Caliphate.

They then took advantage of the weakness in Syria - due to the Arab Spring (another box of frogs) and took over great swathes of Syria as well. There are ongoing conflicts between the Syrian regime (supported by Russia) and ISIS in the disputed territories near the Turkish border

Using the term Radical Islam is completely nonsensical. It’s a phrase coined by shock jocks and RW Christian fundamentalists to dumb down a complex situation and stoke the fear of the uneducated.

Islam is no more radical than Christianity or Judaism. The scriptures of the 3 religions are very similar (another box of frogs).

There are terrorists - who hide behind a twisted idealogy - who absolutely want the destruction of Israel.

And they have rich pickings amongst the dispossessed in the Levant.

 

[daRque]

Honestly what was Israel to do,

Kill people, obviously.

Unleash a military might and stop people from eating, drinking water, the totally natural thing to do.

 

[daRque]

Boy I can see where this thread will go.

 

[daRque]

Look at the protests in Sydney, it's clear what they want.
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And what percentage of Sydney's Islamic population was in attendance?

But based on a tiny percentage of people you think it's okay to arrive at the conclusion of "that's what they want"?

Are you actually serious?

 

[Prowsey]

What you said in the line i quoted is so wrong, to equate the hunting down and killing of whole families, ie women and children or slaughtering young people fleeing a concert is going to far, Israel cant ask Hamas to come out and fight as they wont, they prefer the political wedge of forcing Israel to target them from civilian neighborhoods , this is tragic for the people of Gaza but from what i have seen the people cheer Hamas and the spilling of Jewish blood, also tragic that no Islamic Arabic country will accept a single refugee, they prefer to leave them all there as a thorn in the side of Israel, also when you hear the chants " from the river to the sea" this means wiping out Israel totally, not a great way to garner sympathy.

Mate, you really need to discover what Israel are doing in Gaza.

It’s not me saying it.

It is Israel’s own citizens saying that they condemn Israel’s barbarity in Gaza in response to the atrocities committed by Hamas (not the Palestine Protectorate).

Israel’s actions in response, coupled with what they have subjected the peoples of Gaza too over the last 10-15 years is nothing short of barbaric.

 

[southsport]

And what percentage of Sydney's Islamic population was in attendance?

But based on a tiny percentage of people you think it's okay to arrive at the conclusion of "that's what they want"?

Are you actually serious?

I'd say that the majority of muslims agree with the protesters.
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[Prowsey]

Kill people, obviously.

Unleash a military might and stop people from eating, drinking water, the totally natural thing to do.

I hope it doesn’t get locked.

With one notable exception, the discussion has been civil and while there are differing opinions the conversation has been quite illuminating.

I truly believe that knowledge is the answer to all our problems. Being able to participate in fact based debates educates us all (e.g I was unaware of the Israel attack on the US destroyer in the 60’s, or at the very least I’d forgotten).

What I object to, is rolling the same tired old tropes out, and not being able to discern propaganda from information.

I will freely admit my claim that there is no “radical Islam” is controversial - until you trace the lineage of its usage.

And - like me - you read the Koran (I’ve read the Torah, the Bible and the Koran, along with the Bhagavad Gita and the teachings of the Buddha) and find it’s almost 70% word for word from the Old Testament/Torah.

Like Christians and Jews there are Muslims who are more fundamental in their views, and there are Muslims who are quite liberal in their beliefs.

Terrorists on the other hand, have a twisted idealogy, built on the desire for political power and corrupt the beliefs of mainly young people.

 

[Magaoidh]

I watched a Piers Morgan interview with an Oxford graduate Palestinian spokesman expecting to learn something……it was a shouting match!
Unbelievable!
My left wing trade union meetings were far more civilised than these barbarians!

 

[daRque]

I'd say that the majority of muslims agree with the protesters.
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Based on what facts or logic?

I know literally a load of Muslims and mange a fair few of them too at work.
Anecdotal only but every Muslim I know hates the radical thing and don't support it any way.

They hate the damage it is dausing their image.

 

[Prowsey]

I'd say that the majority of muslims agree with the protesters.
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That’s not factually correct Southsport.

To lump Muslims together into a homogenous lump is about as silly as saying all Christians believe the same thing.

Or all Jews. Or Hindis…I could go on.

The muslim world want nothing less than the elimination of Israel, looking for a solution to this is a waste of time.
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This is also not factually correct.

Indeed there are large numbers of Muslims and States in the Middle East that have accepted Israel’s right to exist.

What a number of them do have a problem with is Israel’s illegal land grabs and repression of thousands of people in the Gaza Strip.

 

[southsport]

I say that this war will escalate and that the surrounding muslim nations will attack Israel.
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[Prowsey]

I say that this war will escalate and that the surrounding muslim nations will attack Israel.
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This is quite possible.

So far there have been frantic back room negotiations, to ensure that Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia aren’t dragged into the conflict.

As I’ve said earlier, there is evidence that Iran sponsored the Hamas attack.

It will be a close run thing to keep it from escalating.

 

[Bluey]

Time for me to leave the room, to say Christians are just as radical as Islam?, that will do me, and i realize the old testament is no nursery rhyme but in actions?, i must have missed the Christian beheadings or throwing gays off tall buildings, or the stoning of women, and your leanings are very clear, you start the thread saying what Hamas did was barbaric but then use much of the thread to bash Israel!, and im very aware of what Israel has done on the past but if you look at the map Israel is this tiny country in a massive land mass of Islamic countries, i say let them have their bit of desert, its the only liberal democracy in the midst of dictatorships or monarchies ;
And no radical Islam you reckon?, i worked with Muslims shoulder to shoulder, one of the best guys had to leave Afghanistan because of as he said the " radicals", so god knows what you would call them, but honestly i dont care.

Islam is no more radical than Christianity or Judaism. The scriptures of the 3 religions are very similar (another box of frogs).

 

[Prowsey]

Time for me to leave the room, to say Christians are just as radical as Islam?, that will do me, and i realize the old testament is no nursery rhyme but in actions?, i must have missed the Christian beheadings or throwing gays off tall buildings, or the stoning of women, and your leanings are very clear, you start the thread saying what Hamas did was barbaric but then use much of the thread to bash Israel!, and im very aware of what Israel has done on the past but if you look at the map Israel is this tiny country in a massive land mass of Islamic countries, i say let them have their bit of desert, its the only liberal democracy in the midst of dictatorships or monarchies ;
And no radical Islam you reckon?, i worked with Muslims shoulder to shoulder, one of the best guys had to leave Afghanistan because of as he said the " radicals", so god knows what you would call them, but honestly i dont care.

Read what I said.

You are conflating the religion with the followers. Islam, Christianity and Judaism share very similar beliefs, with religious texts proselytising very similar messages, including the conversion or persecution/killing of non-believers.
None of the religions are radical. Although the only difference between a cult and religion is time .

And to say that Christians haven’t beheaded people, thrown them off buildings, burnt women at the stake or bombed buildings - demonstrates that you know very little about what the followers of that particular religion have done in its name.

And to call Israel a liberal democracy is just patently ridiculous.

I have focused on Israel, as the media in Australia, have mainly focused on the atrocities committed by Hamas - which I abhor - and there needs to be some focus on the atrocities that Israel are committing, providing some clear eyed commentary.

But as it seems to take multiple attempts to sink, let me say it again. The actions of Hamas, including the murder of civilians, the rape of women and the kidnapping of Israeli citizens is abhorrent and should be condemned in the strongest possible terms.

I hope that the ring leaders are hunted down and brought to justice.