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Manly Pride Debacle

cmorrison9

cmorrison9

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Pplspoet said:
Agree that this sets a double standard.

It’s saying that it’s not acceptable to promote anti-LGBTQ speak in public (aka Folau), but it’s cool if you believe that stuff within the sanctity of your church… how does that work?

Also, let’s examine the line ‘it’s against my religion’.

That is saying 1 of 2 things, either:

1. I am not in support of equal rights and inclusion for the LGBTQ community.

Now, whether that is based on faith or not, that is a hurtful and hateful position to take.

Or 2. I don’t think for myself.

Which is possibly even more concerning.

I kind of a agree that this ‘it’s my religion’ thing needs to be held up to closer examination when it affects those other than the individual. Wear a hat, eat certain foods, don’t go to work on certain days, all good. But if you want to hate on a group of people because the church told you to, nah, not cool.
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It is not hating on the gay community for a player to stand down from wearing a jersey. A jersey that goes against their own personal religious belief.

It is idiotic to suggest that it is hate/discriminatory to not wear the jersey but fail to see that it is just as hateful/discriminatory to force players to do something against their religion.

It is not right for one group and wrong for the other.

As I said before, stands like this are not inclusive. Clearly.

A sensitive topic, 💯
 
VIP said:
Agreed.

Let’s try keep this on footy talk. Anyone who wants to have a philosophical or ideological chat should take it to the Social Lounge.
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Says the poster who has posted multiple times on this topic :unsure:
 
I hope the club are watching very closely.

Would like to hear the pride's thoughts on this. I would be shattered if our players refused to play and bailed on the team for something so pedantic at the end of the day (it's literally just some rainbow on a shirt)

However, there's a difference between wanting to promote something and then actively despising it and wishing for harm. I doubt the Manly seven genuinely wear malice in their heart (I could be wrong, but I doubt it). For religious reasons, they don't want to wear the shirt, and so they've made themselves, the Manly club, and perhaps the game itself an easy target to cop the brunt.

The same could happen here and so as I said I hope we are paying attention carefully. How do we reconcile the fact that the game is dominated by Islander players (from nations dominated by fundamentalist Christianity) while also wishing to be inclusive to the wider LGBTQ world?

I think maybe the club and NRL could design their own inclusive branding that doesn't have to jump on the rainbow branding, maybe. Yes, rainbow is the symbol for LGBTQ and inclusivity, but like it or not it's also a symbol adopted by those with more motives than just that. It shares space with political causes/topics such as pro sex work, gender reassignment surgery and hormone suppression for kids, abortion, etc. All contentious issues that any sports club should steer well away from.

Where I'm going with this is, it's so complicated and messy, are our club paying attention?

I also see the argument that it should be as simple as adopting the current, main symbol for inclusivity (the rainbow) and that the argument ends there, because everyone should be on board for that. It's a pretty good argument but it's also shallow. Most people know that rabbit hole goes a lot deeper than that. Straight to the political, straight to the religious, there's no avoiding it.

Messy, messy situation. Thoughts?
 
Our club needs to be inclusive of all - that means religious groups as well as those from various minorities. For example, some of our indigenous players have a problem with the National Anthem so the sensible thing to do is not play it where it's our decision. This would become messy if a group of players took exception to this. In that case it comes down to respecting the views of others.

I don't mean this as a flippant example but perhaps it's a clear and easy one. Suppose the club got a sponsorship from the meat industry and we decided we could make a few dollars getting involved a "pork on your fork" style promotion. Clearly we should not require practising Muslim or Jewish players to be involved. But should we do it at all?

Perhaps we could turn the Manly fiasco on its head. What if a group of religious players wanted the club to take a stand against abortion? They would certainly have strong views on the subject. They are out of step with community expectations just as they probably are in the current issue. But they have their beliefs.

I think the safest course is to leave some issues in the too hard basket and not do things that might sew disharmony in the team. Certainly before doing anything like Manly is doing, I would expect the club to sit down wth all the player and try to work something out. Just saying take it or leave is not good enough.

Cheers
 
raider said:
I hope the club are watching very closely.

Would like to hear the pride's thoughts on this. I would be shattered if our players refused to play and bailed on the team for something so pedantic at the end of the day (it's literally just some rainbow on a shirt)

However, there's a difference between wanting to promote something and then actively despising it and wishing for harm. I doubt the Manly seven genuinely wear malice in their heart (I could be wrong, but I doubt it). For religious reasons, they don't want to wear the shirt, and so they've made themselves, the Manly club, and perhaps the game itself an easy target to cop the brunt.

The same could happen here and so as I said I hope we are paying attention carefully. How do we reconcile the fact that the game is dominated by Islander players (from nations dominated by fundamentalist Christianity) while also wishing to be inclusive to the wider LGBTQ world?

I think maybe the club and NRL could design their own inclusive branding that doesn't have to jump on the rainbow branding, maybe. Yes, rainbow is the symbol for LGBTQ and inclusivity, but like it or not it's also a symbol adopted by those with more motives than just that. It shares space with political causes/topics such as pro sex work, gender reassignment surgery and hormone suppression for kids, abortion, etc. All contentious issues that any sports club should steer well away from.

Where I'm going with this is, it's so complicated and messy, are our club paying attention?

I also see the argument that it should be as simple as adopting the current, main symbol for inclusivity (the rainbow) and that the argument ends there, because everyone should be on board for that. It's a pretty good argument but it's also shallow. Most people know that rabbit hole goes a lot deeper than that. Straight to the political, straight to the religious, there's no avoiding it.

Messy, messy situation. Thoughts?
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I'd be disappointed in the players if they donned a pride jersey and played. :eek:
.
 
El Conejo said:
Poet, there is a very stark difference between hating on a group of people, and simply not wishing to actively promote their lifestyle. The Church DOES NOT tell us to hate on them. Have you been to any kind of mass or religious service in your life? Do you ever remember hearing the message that we are to hate homosexuals? It is simply not true - we are called to love each other. It is one of the two great commandments - to love God and to love each other.

With that being said, it IS against Christianity to promote homosexuality and especially to be proud of it. It is absolutely not something to be proud of. These players would be going against the deeply held beliefs and I applaud them for their courage. Going against the grain of society is a true sign that you are thinking for yourself.

A true believer in our Lord does not hate homosexuals or treat them poorly in any way. But we do acknowledge it as a very grave sin and a very damaging lifestyle choice that separates you from God once our judgement day arrives. And from what I have observed in this thread, I have deep concerns for many of you. I will pray for you all.
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Please post one, just one statement from Jesus condemining or even commenting on homosexuality...I'll save you the trouble...there ain't any.

Jesus spent most of his life (from contemporaneous reports) condemning the wealthy and elite of his society for their way of life, rather than persecuting minorities. He credo was unconditional love, and acceptance of all.

If the Manly players really feel that strongly about following the edicts of the bible they claim to live by, then have the courage of their convictions:

* to not play in a jersey that promotes gambling - which after all is a sin.
* to not play in a jersey / on grounds that promotes consumption of alcohol - again a sin
* to not play on a Sunday. As this is the Sabbath, and all work / play on the Sabbath is...yep, you guessed it, a sin.

Of course if they did that they wouldn't get lucrative contracts to play Rugby League...so those moral standards fly out the window.

Far easier to victimise a minority through loudly proclaiming their piety and then hide behind freedom of religion.

You believe what you like. But don't tell other people what to think or how to feel about other members of the community...particularly when you are ignorant of the topic you are trying to espouse.

And particulary don't tell people to not be proud of who they are based on your faulty interpretation of the teachings of Jesus.

Give me a break.
 
raider said:
I hope the club are watching very closely.

Would like to hear the pride's thoughts on this. I would be shattered if our players refused to play and bailed on the team for something so pedantic at the end of the day (it's literally just some rainbow on a shirt)

However, there's a difference between wanting to promote something and then actively despising it and wishing for harm. I doubt the Manly seven genuinely wear malice in their heart (I could be wrong, but I doubt it). For religious reasons, they don't want to wear the shirt, and so they've made themselves, the Manly club, and perhaps the game itself an easy target to cop the brunt.

The same could happen here and so as I said I hope we are paying attention carefully. How do we reconcile the fact that the game is dominated by Islander players (from nations dominated by fundamentalist Christianity) while also wishing to be inclusive to the wider LGBTQ world?

I think maybe the club and NRL could design their own inclusive branding that doesn't have to jump on the rainbow branding, maybe. Yes, rainbow is the symbol for LGBTQ and inclusivity, but like it or not it's also a symbol adopted by those with more motives than just that. It shares space with political causes/topics such as pro sex work, gender reassignment surgery and hormone suppression for kids, abortion, etc. All contentious issues that any sports club should steer well away from.

Where I'm going with this is, it's so complicated and messy, are our club paying attention?

I also see the argument that it should be as simple as adopting the current, main symbol for inclusivity (the rainbow) and that the argument ends there, because everyone should be on board for that. It's a pretty good argument but it's also shallow. Most people know that rabbit hole goes a lot deeper than that. Straight to the political, straight to the religious, there's no avoiding it.

Messy, messy situation. Thoughts?
Click to expand...
The original rainbow "pride" flag was chosen as a symbol for the gay rights movement - prior symbols used included the "pink triangle" used to identify homosexuals in Nazi concentration camps.

It also took inspiration from the hippie movement (think tie-die) and the "flag of the races" which had 5 colours as part of the world peace movement.

It was intended as a symbol for one movement but has been adopted by a number of others, although there are now several variations with each claiming to represent more and more groups, particularly around people of colour who identify with those groups.

Manly have not used the traditional "pride" rainbow, instead using most of the colours in a different arrangement. I assume this was to not just represent LGBTIQA+ but rather represent "people as a spectrum" without clear divisions.

In fact, their name for it, the "Everyone in League" jersey, has no reference to "pride" or LGBTIQA+ issues and the jersey is supporting Gotcha4Life who are a charity with the vision of 0 suicides in Australia.

Rainbows have long been seen as a symbol of hope (the sun after the storm), peace and unity (all the colours side by side). The Christian churches have their own connections to the rainbow as the sign of the covenant between God and mankind.

What's also interesting is that many Pasifika cultures have at least some element fluid/non-binary gender norms compared to Western culture, with the idea of "third gender", "faʻafafine" (and similar) and other non-binary genders in their traditional cultures.

From their own product page:

“Sport is one of those great things where people come together from all walks of life and participate in something without exclusion. This jersey is a celebration of that and the first of its kind in the NRL,’’ said Tyler Rakich, Founder/Director of Dynasty Sport

“The ‘Everyone in League’ Jersey is something we’ve wanted to do for a number of years now. As soon as we got the concept locked in, all parties have contributed to make it what it is and it’s something we’re all really proud of.

“The design itself maintains the iconic Manly DNA with the striped design and maroon but with the subtle inclusion of the rainbow colours which are a nod to inclusivity for Everyone in League.“
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Not one mention of LGBTIQA+ or any other gender or sexuality based issue. The players have baulked at the mere sight of something that could represent beliefs which don't align with their own.

It's really unfortunate that:
  1. Women in League round's launch has now turned into a fight between religion and inclusion, rather than focusing on its original aims
  2. Anyone who is LGBTIQA+ within the NRL sphere now most likely feels marginalised, ostracised and not welcome in that sphere
  3. No team will see a benefit to show the same support to the cause due to this backlash and NRL will become a vacuum for progressive causes once more.
  4. The actual Women in League who identify as LGBTIQA+ will now feel even more like outsiders
It's also quite sad that the players feel they aren't represented as "everyone in league" but that, ultimately, is a block they have decided to put up rather than any fault of Manly or Dynasty. It is really a shame that those 7 don't want to be a part of it.
 
The way I see it, we don't ever need to bring out a 'Pride jersey' with rainbow colours.

The Red and Green of South Sydney is for everyone and is inclusive of everyone regardless of their sexuality, where they are from etc.

Those colours are inclusive and are something we should all be proud of.
 
callmack1 said:
The way I see it, we don't ever need to bring out a 'Pride jersey' with rainbow colours.

The Red and Green of South Sydney is for everyone and is inclusive of everyone regardless of their sexuality, where they are from etc.

Those colours are inclusive and are something we should all be proud of.
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I agree with the principle - unfortunately, some people need a handwritten invitation and to be smacked in the face with it.

There are still so many barriers to LGBTIQA+ people feeling comfortable within the community and particularly in sports. I feel the way that the AFL have handled their "pride" games and rounds has been a positive way to go - it says "YOU ARE WELCOME HERE" rather than waiting for the question to be asked.
 
callmack1 said:
The way I see it, we don't ever need to bring out a 'Pride jersey' with rainbow colours.

The Red and Green of South Sydney is for everyone and is inclusive of everyone regardless of their sexuality, where they are from etc.

Those colours are inclusive and are something we should all be proud of.
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Agree fully.

The club can use Souths Cares as a platform to engage in sensible philanthropy as well without having to associate with anything external
 
@broncobuster thanks for the information and read. I think you've made great points.

There's something to be said about how me and many others immediately associate the rainbow with hot cultural issues. Unfortunately I think that'll be the case for some time going forward. I'm sure Manly had the best intentions at heart
 
raider said:
@broncobuster thanks for the information and read. I think you've made great points.

There's something to be said about how me and many others immediately associate the rainbow with hot cultural issues. Unfortunately I think that'll be the case for some time going forward. I'm sure Manly had the best intentions at heart
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For sure - it is very difficult and I think for some people, the mere sight of it raises, at least in their eyes, a confrontational aspect.

With the modern media, a lot of the people representing any issues often come across as abrasive or aggressive, which triggers other people to respond in the same way. There is always room for healthy debate - what should not be debatable, however, is that the NRL has tried to make the whole sport a much more inclusive place where everyone feels welcomed via their Inclusion Framework.

Unfortunately, at its first major hurdle since Macklemore at the 2017 NRL Grand Final, the NRL has fallen flat on its face, as a whole. It's not just a Manly problem and it also isn't a sign that their club is any better or worse than others.

The Panthers have worn every colour under the sun, but you can guarantee there would be backlash if the club went down a similar route, despite how similar it would be to their standard jersey. They have a number of clearly religious players and I'm sure there would definitely be some concern amongst their group, as would our boys most likely.

The aim of these inclusive rounds is not to say "this is the one and only right way to live", it's about saying "however you are and how you live, you are welcome here". That's all
 
I hope the club is paying attention and realise the world is a broad church....so to speak. Never EVER turn people away or isolate them for who they are BUT virtue signally, politics & hoary marketing have no place in our club
 
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